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User talk:Franken Kesey/Mr. Hyde (3.5e Optimized Character Build)
=Old Comments= comments done before revamp Name Whats the name of the old story where a doctor turns into a serial killer a night? Thought it would be a more fitting name. --Franken Kesey 05:00, April 1, 2010 (UTC) : Dr. Jekyll (turns into Mr. Hyde). --Ghostwheel 05:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC) Optimization How is this optimized? Just for comparison, an actual optimized version of changing ones shape can be found here under "highlights". --Ghostwheel 05:04, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :I have yet to add items, and have only the things found on this wiki for reference. Yes, this build has: half the Str and utterly upholing AC in comparison to the Psionic Monk (3.5e Optimized Character Build). Yet it does 206 damage in an average round (assuming 2/3 of slams hit) in 4 less levels, and doesn't need the uninterrupted 2 round buff needed in yours (defently weaker though). :As noted above my only source of reference is here - I don't even have the players handbook! I was wondering if taking the Warshaper class for the last 3 levels would be better (not to playgerize or anything). If so I would need, at the very least, the class features for Warshaper. Thanks for tagging --Franken Kesey 07:14, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :: I'd highly recommend acquiring as many of the books then. Start with optimizing things created by WotC, not homebrew. And between psionic containment, link power, hustle, etc, you don't actually need to spend more than one actual round buffing yourself up (if that at all). With that in mind, there's still a ~800 DPR difference--and the psimonk's weighed vs. AC 40. At any rate, get the books and begin looking through them. --Ghostwheel 20:01, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :::Now does ca.350 more dmg than your psimonk build, but AC is still way below norm - does dmg compensate? Should some of the arms hold shields instead? Sorry had assumed it took 2 rounds (thanks for clarifying). :::: Could you actually write down the attacks and damages of each attack in a single round, including where the damage comes from? You say 350 more damage, but on the actual page it's such a jumbled mess that it's really hard to tell what's from where. --Ghostwheel 23:10, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::Will definatly write down give me a bit of time. Sorry only does 200 more dmg than your monk - had been looking at your Knightly Charger (3.5e Optimized Character Build) and had gotten them mixed up. Does the rage dice increase when size increases? Thanks --Franken Kesey 23:33, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :::::: Does it say that it does? If not, then no. --Ghostwheel 23:40, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::::::: Checked, Didn't say it did - fixed. Currently this build does ca.700 more damage than your Knightly Charger (3.5e Optimized Character Build), and ca.500 more than your Psionic Monk (3.5e Optimized Character Build). While there still are some technical problems, it would appear that its pretty optimised. Right? Being thus, would anybody mind if I changed the reason for incomplete template to "technical problems"? Thanks --Franken Kesey 04:03, April 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::::: Which variant are you using? If you're using the Balanced CWBL one, you've still got things completely messed up. And you'd need to enchant each arm seperately. And where does it say that each one naturally has a claw on it? So no, have a lot more to fix. --Ghostwheel 04:07, April 2, 2010 (UTC) Balance CWBL You might want to read it again. You've posted it a number of times, but haven't gotten it right. For example, at every 3 levels you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to all ability scores. Also, Getting Flaming would cost 6k at level 4, which you don't have. Furthermore, a manual of gainful exercise costs 110k at level 7... when you only have 11.5k total to spend (including the cost of the weapon enhancements) if you're not using the second half (and if so, there's no point in even mentioning costs). Seriously, read it again thoroughly and understand how it works. --Ghostwheel 05:57, April 1, 2010 (UTC) :As noted above I have no form of reference for items other than your variant.Yet, unlike most other builds/NPCs that i've made , its optimal for this build. The "+1 enhancement bonus to all ability scores" I thought was way to powerful at first (reason for me doing it to just 1). But its been up for long enough without major question - so will start using. Flaming is a +1 bonus weapon - "you get a +1 bonus to 1 weapon at 4th level" (from variant) - whats the problem with that? Will move tome to higher level --Franken Kesey 07:14, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::Since the bonuses to all ability scores are basically at the expense of all stat-boosting items whatsoever, it basically prevents abuse of the wish spell and uber-toming (not really a term, I know, but hopfully you all understand). - TG Cid 20:38, April 1, 2010 (UTC) ::: Actually, they're only at the expense of items that grant enhancement to stats. The part that does the other part (nixes the need for tomes and wishes) is the +1 to two stats at every even level HR in the grimoire system. But yes, things like gloves of dex, periapt of wisdom, etc, are all gone with the Balanced CWBL variant. That said, it might be interesting to incorporate that into this variant instead of making it its own rule, though I'd have to rework the wealth assigned at appropriate levels. --Ghostwheel 20:52, April 1, 2010 (UTC) Le Sigh Alright, let's look at the actual damage done here at level 20. We'll be assuming that the primary attack gets the full +5 weapon bonus for simplicity's sake--not that it'll make much of a difference. Attack Bonus: 17 (BAB) + 12 (Str) - 4 (Multiweapon Fighting) + 5 (Primary only) + 2 (Rage) - 4 (Size) = +28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12 Damage (Primary): 6d6 (Base) + 5d6 (Barbarian) + 2 (Rage) + 12 (Str) +5d6+5 (Magic) = 75 Damage (Secondary): 6d6 (Base) + 5d6 (Barbarian) + 2 (Rage) + 6 (Str) = 46.5 DPR: (9/20 * 75) + (4/20 * 46.5 * 7) + (4/20 * 75) + (1/20 * 46.5 * 13) + (1/20 * 75 * 2) = 33.75 + 65.1 + 15 + 30.225 + 7.5 = 151.575 DPR vs. AC 40 So in the end, you get 151 DPR... which sucks for the level of material you're using. In a fighter-level game? Sure, it would be good. But you're using wizard-level stuff. I'd expect a lot more, and it's not being delivered whatsoever. --Ghostwheel 19:42, April 5, 2010 (UTC) :I would also question the purpose of having an so-called "Optimized Character Build" using Rogue- and Wizard-level homebrew material (which is essentially supposed to be pre-optimized in my opinion, thus negating the need to create something like this). If anything, the fact that this build, which is an amalgam of Rogue and Wizard level material, only has 151 DPR against AC 40 shows the futility of attempting to further optimize Rogue/Wizard-level material, since I would guess that most of the component classes can easily exceed that DPR when taken alone (Tome Barbarian can for sure, and Fiendish Brute should surpass it easily as well). - TG Cid 20:51, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Plus, am I the only one perplexed by the fact that the Outsider type is necessary to take levels in the Fiendish Brute class, and none of the racial traits (or anything, as far as I can see) in this build adresses actually becoming an outsider? I get the feeling that without that, there's even less to be thrilled about. - TG Cid 21:02, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ::: Otherworldly from the racial rebuild variant would let you become an outsider... but I don't think that it's possible to take both Large and Otherworldly (Outsider), since it'd take way too many trait slots, and thus even that part is currently invalid. --Ghostwheel 21:08, April 5, 2010 (UTC) ---- =New Comments= Comments after revamp Optimised This build does ca. 4800 dmg on average for 3 hours once buffed - isn't that optimised? Compared to other builds, like: the Psionic Monk (3.5e Optimized Character Build) does ca. 1000 buffed; the Knightly Charger (3.5e Optimized Character Build) does ca. 800; or the Machine Gun Assassin (3.5e Optimized Character Build) does ca. 550 dmg. In other words This build does more than, 2 times the combined damage of all 3 builds! And can destroy 236 CR of creatures! Whats not optimised about that? --Franken Kesey 23:08, April 19, 2010 (UTC) Wizard Level Material While I am aware that two of the classes used in this build are using Frank and K wizard level material (i.e. wizard+); it would appear that wizard level classes are not over-powered when neither goes above 7th level. I am under the impression that wizard level is build for higher levels. Thus a 7th level wizard class, would appear to be more of a fighter level (on the higher part of its spectrum). Let me know if this assumption is incorrect. --Franken Kesey 23:08, April 19, 2010 (UTC) Rules Also, what rules have I broken in this build? --Franken Kesey 23:08, April 19, 2010 (UTC) :The "total cr in 1 round" thing is garbage. 2 cr 29's make a cr 30 for example. i think like 4 cr 29s make a cr 31. so its not ZOMG cr. also to get expansion up to huge size you need to be manifest as a 7th level Psi-war, which you're not showing. And the levels of wilder.. why? it doesn't seem to work with this build. also using a bunch of stuff you made up is well... cheating. not cheating as much as "Lemme make a bunch of stuff and call it optimized". Its like famous people winning a local battle of the bands. They could do it, but its kind of a d-bag move--NameViolation 04:33, April 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Fixed total CR; was using to show the magnitude of dmg - is there a better method? The Wilder levels are mostly to gain more power points than an average Psi-warrior - will replace with Psi warrior. Do you have any better methods of increasing power points? I agree that using alot of my stuff is lame, yet I only created the race and 3 racial feats. Would adding another tail be better than the 3 feats? Thanks--Franken Kesey 04:53, April 20, 2010 (UTC) ::: have atleast 3 levels of SRD:War_Mind (but you need an existing Power point and using psy-war to get there is like spitting on a fish) or Psy-war and take Practiced manifester for a +4 ML, so you can just squeeze out a 7pp expansion. thats the quick and dirty way. Maybe take overchannel, Practiced manifester, and 2 levels if you don't mind blowin a psionic focus (since they's free). you can take srd talented if you dont wanna take the d8 damage, but this build has fast healing so its kinda pointless. if you only have a 14 wis at 20 you'll need 3 levels of psy-war, but then you wont actually need overchannel. with a 14 wis you'll have 6pp with 2 psy-war lwevels or 8 with 3 levels. Since Practiced MAnifester raises your ML and bonus pp are based of stat and ML you can raise your stat or ML thew various conventional means to gain more pp. --NameViolation 05:28, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::: Where to start...? Let's look at the actual DPR of this build. We'll pretend that half of this build works (when it doesn't), and go with the actual numbers to show that it fails rather badly. :::: So let's start with damage; colossal+ b-sword damage is 1d10 (Medium) -> 2d8 (Large) -> 3d8 (Huge) -> 4d8 (Gargantuan) -> 6d8 (Colossal) -> 8d8 (Colossal+), along with a +14 Strength bonus (+7 to offhand ones), +2 to damage from Barbarian, and +5+5d6 damage from a magical weapon at level 20 for the primary hand if we're using the Balanced CWBL rules. That means 8d8+5d6+14+2 which is 36+17.5+16 for the primary hand (69.5 on average), and 8d8+7+2 which is 45 on average for the offhand. :::: Attack: 13 (BAB) + 17 (Offhand) - 8 (Size) + 2 (Rage) = +24/+19/+14 (with +5 to attack for the primary hand) :::: That gives us the following for DPR vs. AC 40: :::: Primary Hand: 69.5 * 10/20 + 69.5 * 5/20 + 69.5 * 1/20 = 17.375 + 8.6875 + 3.475 = 29.5375 :::: Offhand: 45 * 3 * 5/20 + 45 * 3 * 1/20 * 2 = 33.75 + 13.5 = 47.25 :::: Thus, on a full attack, we get a total DPR of 29.5375 + 47.25 = 76.7875. Truly pitiful--even lower than the damage a rogue-level combatant would bring to the table. Seriously, please do the math yourself first, and check it. If it's subpar, don't bring it at all. --Ghostwheel 06:05, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::Not to forget the fact that you require at least two rounds worth of buffs (according to the Tactics section) before you could even use that combination. Unless, of course, you walked around with those buffs applied constantly. That cuts your DPR (no matter what it originally is) by two thirds (I didn't see above, GW, so I thought I would mention it). That aside, you can't really make the assumption that you are automatically going to hit and do maximum damage, especially with only +27 attack at level 20 (which even with "size detriment negated" as it says in the column is pretty crappy). Anyone who has played D&D that the idea of hitting for maximum damage every time (short of using Maximize Spell) is impossible. So it really can't factor into your calculations. I'm only assuming that that's what you're doing, since there is such a gross discrepancy between your caluclated DPR and Ghostwheel's. The other bad assumptions include automatically hitting (already mentioned, but can't be stressed enough) and being able to make a cleave attempt (which it appears by your calculations would also be an auto-hit for max damage). - TG Cid 10:55, April 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::: You don't qualify for Fiendish Brute or Fiend feats because you're an Outsider of the Material Plane; rather than an Outsider with a plane of origin from the Lower Planes. Furthermore, Skander Rogue 19 with Product of Infernal Dalliance, Extra Arms (at 6th, 12th and 18th) and Craven has four pairs of arms wielding shortswords, 2d6+9d6+19 sneak attack per attack minimum. As long as you're sneak attacking, not hard to do every round, that's 3 attacks with your main hand and 14 attacks with your off-hands (in total) for 17 attacks per round, each at 11d6+19, for an average of 977.5 per round. Off the top of my head. I cannot, for the life of me, see why I would take your multiclassed atrocity over this. P.S the encounter level is 32, nowhere near the 200+ mark you've set yourself. --TK-Squared 12:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC)